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Author Topic: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional  (Read 1569 times)

PUSSY CANCER

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+3
It is a violation of blacks due process rights.
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Doctor Jizzmopper

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2017, 08:15:55 PM »
+1
 :alex:
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The Watcher

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2017, 08:53:13 PM »
0
It is a violation of blacks due process rights.
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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2017, 09:08:24 PM »
+1
realtalk: they passed a stand your ground law but there's some sort of clause for revision that's missing from it which technically makes it "unconstitutional." the headline regarding it is clickbate

Whig Historian

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2017, 10:36:20 PM »
+6
The FL legislature tried to shift the initial burden of proof for an affirmative defense onto the prosecution, which isn't how affirmative defenses work. Court told them "that's not how this works, also changes in judicial procedure are done through the courts rather than the legislature." There should still be a stand your ground law, it's just still up to the defendant to prove their prima facie case.

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2017, 03:00:01 AM »
0
This thread is definitely about SA.
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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2017, 04:04:34 AM »
+1
SA needs a Stand Your Ground law, I bet half of its userbase would die.

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2017, 08:35:26 AM »
+1
The FL legislature tried to shift the initial burden of proof for an affirmative defense onto the prosecution, which isn't how affirmative defenses work. Court told them "that's not how this works, also changes in judicial procedure are done through the courts rather than the legislature." There should still be a stand your ground law, it's just still up to the defendant to prove their prima facie case.

Couldn't the legislature just add as an element of the offense "not in self-defense" in order to shift the burden to the prosecution?

Basically, turning Florida's current murder statute from this:
Quote
The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual.

To this:
Quote
The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, and not in self-defense, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual.

I'm sincerely asking because it seems like creating the laws for the courts to apply is entirely within the legislature's purview. 

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2017, 09:04:26 AM »
0
This thread is definitely about SA.

It wasn't moved here, clam down. I was a bit more picky about a place for everything and everything in it's place but I'm not running things anymore. Also, this thread will fizzle quickly, as the OP was low effort even compared to my laziest threads.

But it's kind of disingenuous to try and prop up your retarded disproven theory about Dog by citing the actions of someone else.
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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2017, 11:25:44 AM »
+9
I will clam down when I get some clams.
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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2017, 05:39:14 PM »
+2

It wasn't moved here, clam down.

Never change,gapo. :allears:

Whig Historian

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 07:54:52 PM »
+2
The FL legislature tried to shift the initial burden of proof for an affirmative defense onto the prosecution, which isn't how affirmative defenses work. Court told them "that's not how this works, also changes in judicial procedure are done through the courts rather than the legislature." There should still be a stand your ground law, it's just still up to the defendant to prove their prima facie case.

Couldn't the legislature just add as an element of the offense "not in self-defense" in order to shift the burden to the prosecution?

Basically, turning Florida's current murder statute from this:
Quote
The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual.

To this:
Quote
The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, and not in self-defense, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual.

I'm sincerely asking because it seems like creating the laws for the courts to apply is entirely within the legislature's purview.

Requiring proof of a negative is a bitch.

Also that would waste massive amounts of prosecutorial and judicial resources by requiring them to have a hearing on every single homicide case whether or not self-defense was even remotely applicable. If Drewontavius does a driveby, are you really going to make an ADA have to spend a dozen hours on the taxpayer's time prepping an argument for why he wasn't acting in self-defense?

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2017, 12:25:22 PM »
+1
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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2017, 07:19:10 PM »
+3
The FL legislature tried to shift the initial burden of proof for an affirmative defense onto the prosecution, which isn't how affirmative defenses work. Court told them "that's not how this works, also changes in judicial procedure are done through the courts rather than the legislature." There should still be a stand your ground law, it's just still up to the defendant to prove their prima facie case.

Couldn't the legislature just add as an element of the offense "not in self-defense" in order to shift the burden to the prosecution?

Basically, turning Florida's current murder statute from this:
Quote
The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual.

To this:
Quote
The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, and not in self-defense, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual.

I'm sincerely asking because it seems like creating the laws for the courts to apply is entirely within the legislature's purview.

Requiring proof of a negative is a bitch.

Also that would waste massive amounts of prosecutorial and judicial resources by requiring them to have a hearing on every single homicide case whether or not self-defense was even remotely applicable. If Drewontavius does a driveby, are you really going to make an ADA have to spend a dozen hours on the taxpayer's time prepping an argument for why he wasn't acting in self-defense?

The answer to your question is yes.

This is currently what happens, routinely. And since the burden of proof is so low, frequently these motions are granted and people are immune from prosecution. The problem is, this is a well meaning law drafted by people that have zero experience in the criminal justice system. Supporters of SYG, particularly the NRA, envision a situation where a homeowner is arrested after defending their family during an armed home invasion or fending off a robbery in a dark alley. 

Practically, you have felons, and gang members shooting and killing each other then claiming stand your ground. Transferred intent applies to this defense as well, so when an innocent kid gets caught in the crossfire, well too fucking bad, they were standing their ground. You will routinely see absurd SYG claims, even in situations where a victim is shot in the back  because, hey, why not?
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PUSSY CANCER

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2017, 10:26:32 PM »
+1
http://legalinsurrection.com/2017/07/florida-judge-rules-recent-changes-to-self-defense-immunity-law-are-unconstitutional/

Quote
“Stand-Your-Ground” was back in the headlines against over the just-concluded Independence Day weekend, thanks to a 14-page decision by Miami-Dade Circuit judge Milton Hirsch that recent legislative changes to Florida’s self-defense immunity law were unconstitutional, reports the Bradenton Herald newspaper and other sources. (That decision is embedded below.)

Specifically, the recently signed law switched the burden of persuasion on pre-trial self-defense immunity from the defendant to the state, and changed the standard of evidence required from a preponderance of the evidence to one of clear and convincing evidence.

(We wrote about these changes more extensively here: “Florida Changes Burden of Proof of Self-Defense Immunity.”)


In other words, under the revised law once a defendant claims self-defense immunity the state is required to disprove the defendant’s claim of justified use of force by clear and convincing evidence. If the state fails to do so, the judge is to grant the defendant immunity from criminal prosecution and civil suit.

Judge Hirsch’s decision that these changes are unconstitutional is based on the argument that although under the Florida constitution it is the legislature that creates substantive law, only the Florida courts can create procedural law. The judge considered the recent legislative changes to self-defense immunity to be procedural in nature and thus beyond the legislature’s authority.

I claim no expertise whatever in Florida constitutional law, so I will need to leave the merits of Judge Hirsch’ constitutional argument to others. I do, however, claim some modest expertise in use-of-force law, which is the subject of nearly the first half of Judge Hirsch’s opinion.

Having read that half of the decision closely, I can only say that if his knowledge and understanding of Florida constitutional law is as weak and disordered as his knowledge and understanding of Florida “Stand-Your-Ground” law. It seems most unlikely that this decision will withstand appellate review.

Before we get to the merits, or lack thereof, of Judge Hirsch’s coverage of Florida “Stand-Your-Ground” law, however, it is necessary that we, at least, first understand what we are talking about.

Stand-Your-Ground ≠ Self-Defense Immunity

Most important in this regard is that we understand that Stand-Your-Ground and self-defense immunity are two entirely distinct legal concepts, and indeed are covered by completely separate Florida statutes.

Stand-Your-Ground refers to the removal of an otherwise existing duty to retreat before one may use force in self-defense. A minority of 13 states impose such a legal duty to retreat, making it a fifth element of any self-defense claim, in addition to the other elements of innocence, imminence, proportionality, and reasonableness. The large majority of 37 states, however, do not impose a legal duty to retreat. Roughly half of these have either never had such a duty, or have had the duty rejected by case law (court decisions). Roughly half, like Florida, rejected the legal duty to retreat through legislative action. When Florida did this in 2005, it effectively redefined self-defense, broadening the range of conduct that qualified as a justified use-of force (cases that would have failed as lawful self-defense because the defender failed to retreat would now qualify as self-defense because retreat was no longer required).

Self-defense immunity is a legal doctrine entirely distinct from Stand-Your-Ground. Indeed, self-defense immunity it has nothing whatever to do with the definition of self-defense. It merely says that if a person’s use-of-force falls qualifies as lawful self-defense—however self-defense may be legally defined elsewhere—then that person is entitled to immunity from prosecution and civil suit.

The fact that these are two entirely distinct legal concepts is clear to anyone who has bothered to look at the actual statutes.

Stand-Your-Ground (no duty to retreat) language is found in several Florida self-defense statutes, including: §776.012 Use or threatened use of force in defense of person, §776.013 Home protection; use or threatened use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm, and §776.031 Use or threatened use of force in defense of property. Note that none of those statutes says so much as a single word about self-defense immunity.

Self-defense immunity is found only in a completely separate statute: §776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use or threatened use of force. Note that this statute says not a single word about Stand-Your-Ground (no duty to retreat).

So, Stand-your-Ground and self-defense immunity are two entirely distinct legal concepts.

Judge Confuses These Two Concepts

It has, sadly, become common for the phrase “Stand-Your-Ground” to be used to refer to both of these distinct legal concepts, largely because both doctrines were adopted by Florida at the same time, and because of the apparently extremely limited mental capabilities of most of the journalists who cover either of these topics. This has the unavoidable consequences of blurring together in the mind these two distinct legal concepts, and leads to sloppy and inaccurate legal understanding and analysis.

While such sloppiness of thought may be forgivable in journalists and traumatic brain injury victims, however, it is inexcusable in a member of the bench, and particularly a member of the bench who is attempting to make profound changes to one (and only one) of these legal doctrines.

Yet this stupefying blending of legal concepts is exactly what Judge Hirsch engages in with this opinion.

Note that I’m not suggesting that Judge Hirsch merely sloppily uses the phrase “Stand-Your-Ground.” While this is also inexcusably sloppy in a judge, it has become so common among even lawyers and judges in Florida that it is perhaps understandable.

Judge Hirsch, however, goes far beyond mere misuse of the phrase “Stand-Your-Ground” and in fact appears unable to distinguish between the legal concepts themselves.

We know this because the subject of this decision is self-defense immunity, and only self-defense immunity, and yet Judge Hirsch devotes fully a third of his purported discussion of self-defense immunity by instead writing substantively about Stand-Your-Ground (the legal duty to retreat), when the legal duty to retreat is simply not a subject of this case. (Indeed, Judge Hirsch spends a good portion of this part of the decision quoting himself, apparently a habit of his.)

Why Judge Hirsch would lead his decision on a self-defense immunity matter with a substantive discussion of “Stand-Your-Ground” (legal duty to retreat) when in fact his decision has nothing to do with Stand-Your-Ground and involves solely self-defense immunity? Two possible reasons come immediately to mind:

(1) He simply lacks the cognitive function to recognize the distinction between these two distinct legal concepts.  This would be unfortunate for many reasons, not the least of which is that Judge Hirsch is also an adjunct faculty member at the University of Miami School of Law.

(2) He was fully aware that his decision would get vastly more news coverage over the Independence Day weekend if he made the phrase “Stand-Your-Ground” a prominent component of that decision.

Note that these two possible explanations are not mutually exclusive.

Again, I will leave to others the question of the merits of Judge Hirsch’s constitutional argument. The sloppy mental processes and/or self-aggrandizement evident in his discussion of Florida use-of-force law, however, does not suggestthat the constitutional argument is likely to be particularly robust.
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[SWOLE]Grode Jar

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2017, 10:44:40 AM »
+9
Why would [[[Milton Hirsch]]] make such a decision?  I just can't imagine why he would possibly come to this kind of conclusion.

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2017, 03:14:40 PM »
+4
Oy vey, it cannot possibly be that [[[Milton Hitsch]]] lives in a gated community away from any real threats.

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2017, 04:19:58 PM »
+8
A jew put this thread in the wrong forum and a jew made a bad judicial call.

We need to look further into these incidents because there may be commonalities

Possibly jewish commonalities.

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2017, 04:20:10 PM »
+5
Did I happen to mention the jews? This could be jews methinks goonsires.

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2017, 05:24:34 PM »
+1
If only the {{{fagmins}}} had a way to move this gay {{{thread}}} to another forum.

Oy gevalt! If only!
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Whig Historian

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2017, 06:26:13 PM »
0
If only the {{{fagmins}}} had a way to move this gay {{{thread}}} to another forum.

Oy gevalt! If only!
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Rocket

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2017, 12:21:22 AM »
0
But who could ever tell them? How could they know?
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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2017, 08:29:16 PM »
+3
A jew put this thread in the wrong forum and a jew made a bad judicial call.

We need to look further into these incidents because there may be commonalities

Possibly jewish commonalities.

ljl at this 5 foot 3 tequila shot bean nigger calling his superior a jew.  nice try, schlomo ortiz
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Procrustes

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Re: CNN: Florida judge rules stand your ground law unconstitutional
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2017, 02:22:40 PM »
+5
A jew put this thread in the wrong forum and a jew made a bad judicial call.

We need to look further into these incidents because there may be commonalities

Possibly jewish commonalities.

ljl at this 5 foot 3 tequila shot bean nigger calling his superior a jew.  nice try, schlomo ortiz

Literally calling jews literal jews made me literally jewish

Wheels within wheels here folks we are thru the looking glass